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Well... As we all know, the whole 'Turning Amaterastu into a human' thing is in and booming. Yea... I was reading a random journal I ran into today, and it had said how this guy hated that people in fandom design Ammy to be a human. And I was like 'WTF' a little bit. Then he said that it's just a 'Mary Sue'.

Well, according to what I know... Mary Sue's are when you put yourself into a fandom, for example, if you wrote an Okami Fan Fiction and you put yourself in there... Then that'll be a Mary Sue, right? (Actually, I'm beginning to think my judgment is clouded...)

Anyways... Despite me already being all WTF'd up, there was something that scared me even more...

The guy said he liked Amaterasu/Ushiwaka.

So... I was kind of like 'What' at first, and then it really shocked me when I thought about it... So you like Ammy and Waka together? Ammy as a wolf? I can imagine them trying to have sex right now... NO, I CAN'T.

I don't want to sound like I'm ranting, because I hate ranting... And I understand you like Waka and Ammy together in general, but dude, that's where Ammy+Waka comes in, right? Or am I wrong...?

Anyways... You all know that I happen to be in the whole Human Ammy Fandom (HAF lol) And that the journal I read will not change my mind.... Even if Human Ammy IS a Mary Sue, if you look VERY VERY closely at some of the end pages of the Okami Artbook, you can see... Oh! Look at that... A Human Ammy. (Page 287, for those of you that are too lazy to look.)

I don't like Mary Sue's, personally. But if Ammy as a Human is honestly a Mary Sue to you guys, then she's the best I've ever seen. There are endless possibilities to how she could look if she appeared as a human on Okami. Endless. And so, with that, we should discuss this, right?

Besides... Another reason fandom turns Ammy into a human is so the cute boys/girls around her/him can sex ammy up :P

... Eh heh ^^; Sorry if this post is a bit inappropriate.

I can tell, a lot of people can respond to this... Or either just ignore it in shock or disagreement. ._.; Oh, and if this happens to ruin anyones hopes and dreams, sincerely sorry :bows:

-- Ki

EDIT: http://kanahookah.livejournal.com/ I have the link to his journal, and he actually says he doesn't like Waka/Ammy (I was skimming! XP) But it still does rant about human ammy being a Mary Sue.

Comments

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emlan
Mar. 21st, 2008 06:52 pm (UTC)
The zip I have must've numbered the pages in anohter order since I can't find it, upload please?

Most people I've seen who diss gijinkas do it since they assume it's furries making an excuse to bone the characters LOL

Pretty sure a Mary Sue can be both a canon and original character, aslong as they are perfect in any way and everyone loves them and they can do no wrong etc etc etc
shinnagami_star
Mar. 21st, 2008 07:21 pm (UTC)


That should be it.

Hmm, I didn't think about that! Thanks for the comment ^^
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rainmage
Mar. 21st, 2008 07:02 pm (UTC)
Page 287 in the scanned artbook is all text o_o

There's this other concept of a Mary Sue, and that's taking a canon character and twisting it so OOC (sometimes even changing their whole looks) they're totally a different person, and not necessarily making them act/look like the writer. For instance, taking Hermione Granger from HP and have her "grow curves" during the summer, dye her hair, wear Hot Topic clothes, and instead of her usually nerdy self she's a flirty slut.

I think it could be easy to have a fanon human!Ammy as a "canon Sue". But really, that depends of the person who draws/writes her, and that happens in any fandom. Hell, you could even argue that drawing an Oina without their mask on might make it simple to Sue them up, as their face could look either way just like human!Ammy's face and body could be anything you want. And if she suddenly stops her god functions and silly-yet-responsible attitude to become a sex kitten who'd bang Okikurmi/Ushiwaka/whoever the author fancies all day long, then sure, she's OOC and maybe a self-fulfilling Sue.

I believe it's possible to have an IC, realistic version of Amaterasu as a human. You just have to be really careful and not have her act too different of what she normally does in canon. It's a bit hard to do, but not impossible.
shinnagami_star
Mar. 21st, 2008 07:25 pm (UTC)
I agree. A lot of people make her a bit to out-of-her range. For example, big boobies, or really super kawaii designs. I like people that draw her like this, but it seems a little bit off being 'ammy'.

Ammy is lazy, never really listens to conversations, eats, but is a great fighter. She's cute, but can get pissed off fast, especially if someone is insulting her. That's how I view her, anyways... I've played the game seven times, so I should know :D
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shinnagami_star
Mar. 21st, 2008 07:28 pm (UTC)
Well... I can agree with some of this comment, I totally ship Issun/Ammy! It's just seems to be a bit off, is what I'm trying to say. And I totally agree about what you say for human forms... It's possible in mythology, so why do people hate it? I dunno... There has to always be a balance to fandom, to everything, huh? ^^;

Heh. Icon Love to you.
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croik
Mar. 21st, 2008 09:10 pm (UTC)
Any character can be a Mary Sue in the hands on an unskilled or immature author. I don't merely making Ammy human counts - a single piece of fanart can't be a Mary Sue on its own, no matter how it's depicted. It can be poorly done or ridiculous or OOC but the characteristics of a Mary Sue are heavily based on how that character acts as well as looks (at least, when it comes to the definition of MS that I'm most familiar with).

What I wonder more about the human Ammy side of fandom is...does anyone ever portray her like the other celestial beings? A toga and head wings? I've only ever seen human Ammy in various versions of traditional Japanese clothing, but assuming they're all from the same place, chances are if she has an original human form it might be closer to that.

Not that I prefer her like that, I'm just curious if there's a special reason no one portrays her that way.
shinnagami_star
Mar. 21st, 2008 09:14 pm (UTC)
I've definitely seen her in masks before, multiple times. So if that's what you mean, then yes. And I see your point in that too; if ammy had to leave at the end of the game at Kamui, then you'd think that's where she first came from. I don't portray her like that myself, but I see your point.
(no subject) - rainmage - Mar. 21st, 2008 09:46 pm (UTC) - Expand
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shinnagami_star
Mar. 21st, 2008 09:41 pm (UTC)
Logging out now, so if you still want to discuss, then go ahead and do so ^.^ Made some edits to the entry, so please read >.>
ishicat
Mar. 21st, 2008 11:14 pm (UTC)
I tried skimming through that person's rant, but uh...

"...Maybe I think this way because I, personally, am a huge Ushiwaka fangirl. I really am. I love him and his personality.
And, being an fangirl of him, I hate seeing him in pairings. I think being a fangirl of someone and being a fan of them in a pairing wih someone else (especially if it's YAOI) is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of."

It's the same old case of "I hate Character A being paired with ~my favorite~ Character B, so I will bitch and moan about how Character A is SUCH a Mary Sue."
shinnagami_star
Mar. 22nd, 2008 05:37 pm (UTC)
Yup ^^; And he said something about he didn't care what others think, so people might as well not have commented on his page. He also says he doesn't really care about people commenting out into the community. A little bit bitchy, don't you think? :\ (Or is it just me? -_-;)
xellinamazoku
Mar. 22nd, 2008 04:42 am (UTC)
You want our opinions, or...?

I personally don't like people turning Ammy into a human any more than I like people turning human characters into wolves or cute animals or whatever, which is pretty common. I always skip over any humanised Ammy art, and yeah, I think it's pretty Mary Sue ish. Personally, I think it's out of character for her to be paired with anyone. She seemed like an asexual goddess to me.
bahzi
Mar. 22nd, 2008 10:05 am (UTC)
Ditto.

I don't care for human Ammy art or cosplay. I think the ones I really dislike are ones that make Ammy look like a Britney Spears backup dancer....it's completely out of character for her to even be human, let alone look like a skank, and I've seen way too much of that.

I did see one human Ammy cosplay that was really well done though, it involved elaborate traditional-type kimonos, and looked like it had taken a lot of time and thought, and actually left Ammy looking dignified, unlike most human Ammy art and costumes I've happened upon.

But yeah, for the most part, human Ammy anything falls into the Mary-sue catagory as far as lame-ness goes for me. I also agree that not any Ammy pairing makes much canon sense, and when you stray too far from canon, it's almost always auto-fail.
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eikomakimachi
Mar. 22nd, 2008 01:20 pm (UTC)
I disagree about the mary-sue thing... unless you think you are human Ammy, that characterization is not considered Mary-sue. Besides, that guy must understand that due to Japanese culture, they believe that gods can take many forms, it just happen Ammy took the form of a wolf. So it's quite logical to find many japanese fanarts of Okami with human Ammy or human Brush Gods. Yet, I think that if we want to show the Brush Gods and Ammy as humans, they would probable take a more androgynous form, which is a more commom illustration of gods. Even the game's text is careful enough to make the gods' gender ambiguous.
shinnagami_star
Mar. 22nd, 2008 05:52 pm (UTC)
Yes, I agree. Ammy could also take more of a asexual form, which some people draw her as. Or what some others do is draw a boy and girl version. It's not the best as asexual clothing or something like that, but it sure is smart. I've seen some artists even asexual her up on DA ^^; it's complex enough to already make her into a girl and/or a boy, so a asexual outfit could be harder, but people know how to deliver, I guess :D
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shinnagami_star
Mar. 22nd, 2008 05:25 pm (UTC)
Wow, disagreements are coming into this ._.

I hear some 'Yea, human ammy is a Mary Sue' arguments. But it seems like most people still agree Human Ammy is not a Mary Sue... Intense. *Tents fingers*
nefertieh
Mar. 23rd, 2008 01:14 am (UTC)
Man, I hate how people who see anything remotely female they don't like and label it as a Mary Sue. Amaterasu in human form doesn't sound like much of a Mary Sue to me (as humans are considered 'lower' than gods), however a human who WAS Amaterasu would probably have a different story.

Mary Sues are primarly characterised by their actions and personality. Ammy, on the other hand, doesn't even have a single like of dialogue in the story. o_O
tanithkitty
Mar. 23rd, 2008 03:51 pm (UTC)
Two cents
The term "Mary Sue" in fandom originally meant a created character that was "perfect." They had no flaws, were paired with the main character of the cannon (or just the hottest) and were able to solve every problem that arose because of their perfection. IE--beautiful blond insanely powerful witch becomes Harry Potter's GF who single-handedly help him defeat Voldmort.

When creating a Mary Sue became so hated, writers went the opposite direction, creating flawed characters that usually were still beautiful, but they had some tragedy attached to them. They were scarred and misunderstood, but in the end still got with the main character or what not. They started to get called Mary Sues as well, so the label of a MS broadened.

"Mary Sue" has also been used as a label for self-intert characters, as well as just a broad term for any original character in a fic.

The label has been through a lot of changes, so it may be hard to say just what that guy meant. He probably meant it as the perfectionist Mary Sue. Thing is, Ammy is a goddess who has the power of creation. If he's saying she's too powerful, no one can beat her, and that makes her a MS, then I suppose he's kinda right, but we already know Ammy has some flaws that don't make her perfect, so I think going that far to call her a MS is rather silly.

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents. :)
shinnagami_star
Mar. 23rd, 2008 07:12 pm (UTC)
Re: Two cents
Nice, shiny two cents then :P
dezychan1
Mar. 23rd, 2008 10:10 pm (UTC)
Please Don't Eat the Noob. D:
[haha... I'm new andf this is my first post to this community, yeep. D: don'teatmeplz]

I can see where everyone is coming from with the whole "Humanized Amaterasu" arguments. I'm not too keen on "humanizing" Ammy myself, but if it's done cleverly enough I can tolerate it. [I've really only seen super duper cutsey japanese fan art style of it.]

Though with me, what bugs me about it is that they don't make human!Ammy look like the actual shinto goddess, which in my opinion, is what I would do if I wanted to protray Amaterasu as a humanoid. But then again I am a huge dork that likes mythology and such like that, so I would totally love to see Issun's reaction to Amaterasu in her true shinto-sun-goddess self. *snort* xD;;
(Anonymous)
Jul. 15th, 2008 08:08 pm (UTC)
Sorry for the anonymous thing. I stumbled across this while looking for any official human Ammy art.
I personally don't think human Ammy is a Mary Sue. I always thought mary sues were ultra perfect self inserts. I can see how someone could twist her around that way though. Especially the scantly clad, big chested, super-innocent faced human Ammys. As far as Ammy being either gender goes, I've always seen her as a female. Possibly because I knew the Mythology before the game. Those who see her for what she really is tend to refer to her as female: Waka, the other brush gods, the ghost of the Wind Shrine priest who says he sees with his inner eye and calls her "a maiden most fair".
The one time I drew human Ammy, it was with a mask. *shrug* I'm also a Ammy/Oki shipper, but I know that Issun or Waka are more likely, particularly Issun, when they give each other that long look before she takes off on the Ark. XD I'll also be cosplaying as a human Ammy at a convention in September, in a kimono. *shrug* Just makes the most sense to me.
(Anonymous)
Sep. 25th, 2008 01:53 am (UTC)
You're right
I agree with you 100%.

Ammy is supposed to have a human form... after all, I remember someone in the Okami game commenting she had a beautiful human form or something. (Sorry I'm not very accurate...)

But yeah, she was reincarnated into a wolf, that doesn't mean she's supposed to and always be one! Sheesh, some people are so dimwitted it's not even funny. -_-
(Anonymous)
Nov. 10th, 2008 04:50 am (UTC)
My Impression...
Apologies for my anonymous too, I stumbled across this fascinating discussion looking for an AmmyxWaka fanfic. I dunno how I got here either. Anyway, my impression of the Mary Sue term everyone has been debating has left me with the thought that a Human version of Ammy, female preferably, is not appropriate to the game, but as a fanfic set after the game it is a feasible idea. Many factors of this game were taken from Japanese mythology. As a person from a western country, who had no idea about any of this mythology, I personally(note this word, please!) think it is not too big of a stretch to take the part of that mythology that says that Ammy has a human form along with facts from the game, such as priest from the Gale Shrine saying he saw Ammy as a beautiful maiden, to use in a storyline. Though I must admit, I do object to the two Ammy extremes mentioned way earlier in this discussion. I'm not really what to say about fan art, except that I would hope that an artist, if they really do like the game Okami, would keep in mind the traits of Ammy as they tried to depict her.
(Anonymous)
Feb. 19th, 2009 11:13 pm (UTC)
Wow. There were a lot of responses to this. Just for curiosity sake, I would like to pitch my point of view.

Ammy is a goddess. A goddess. As referred back, she is beyound humans and therefore very unsuited as one. That is one of the main annoyances of human!Ammy. Because in human!Ammy works, she's human. Like, acting, thinking, talking like a human. Granted, even the gods aren't perfect in Nippon *cough*Kasugami*cough* But they are powerful, diginified, and ancient beings with the power to restore nature and achieve balance within the world. Do you see where I'm getting to? More often than not, human!Ammy is not so much a humanoid version of the Amaterasu we all know and love, but rather a human with Ammyish looks (sometimes not even that).

I can hear the screams in the background. "How can you say that! She's totally Ammy, and beautiful, big chested, and kawaii to boot!" No. Amaterasu, as a wolf with her personality illustrated by action rather than dialogue, is found to be more than a one dimensional human as many portray her to be. She is curious, go-lucky, and extremely justice orientened. She is a fierce warrior, a diginified goddess, and a sly thinker. She is the enraged goddess as well as the relaxed, joyful one.

Too often, I find the human!Ammy depiction too shallow to cover all these traits. You can't classify her as a big busted lady or a young cute naive kid. Using everything I wrote up there and more, Ammy can be an amazing goddess, humanoid or not. However, fandom often twists the true characters (why do you think the phrase OOC was created?) and we end up with dull Ammy clones, lacking in the true spirit of the sun goddess.

It is so much easier for people to use the wolf form, since the personality is already translated for use. But if people seriously want to use a humanoid Amaterasu, they better reconsider all of Amaterasu's mind. Clover Studios did an amazing job developing a wolf goddess that seems, at this point, more complex and godly than the fan made counterparts. I still have hope, though, that somewhere, there is a truly Amaterasu in a humanoid form. It'd be interesting if the original paintings of the Shinto Omikami Amaterasu were adapted for Ammy. In fact, if anyone did a piece in that style, it'd show a lot of the great goddess...

On a side note, regarding the Amaterasu/Ushiwaka paring, is there no one whose not heard the purest love is that between man and dog/wolf? Love isn't all about sexual pleasure...
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